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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #230
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 10 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 230

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The Iridium Standard
         2. Re: Corn Dogs, Comin' Up Hot!
         3. RE: The Iridium Standard
         4. Corn Dogs!
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
         6. Re: Fighters and Missiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:25:45 +1000
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Second, the Imperium is modeled (it seems to me) on mercantile empires
> rather than capitalism.  Similar empires in our past where strongly
> tied to a centralized authority working on a gold standard. Their goal
> was to exploit the periphery pulling wealth into the center from where
> the oligarchy ruled.

The Third Imperium was only partially centralised. Each Grand Duke was a 
king in his own right, taking cues and vuage directions from 
Capital/Core, and implememting them in his Domain. If there was an 
oligarchy, it was a 2 tiered one.

> 
> Thirdly, once firmly established the 3rd Imperium's trade was almost
> all internal.  Trade with various nations was never emphasized.  Sure
> there was some of it, but I don't think it was major.  Because of
> this, the Imperium might have thought it could afford to fix the value
> of the credit.

It is easy to set the rules if you are the only player in town.

> 
> Therefore, I theorize that the Imperium didn't float it's currency,
> but rather based it on a 'gold standard'..although iridium is
> tempting.  <g> Perhaps the "long night" can be explained as a massive
> economic depression brought on by the contact with the Terran
> Confederation.  Certainly, the "long night" didn't hit for hundreds of
> years after contact, and after the Solomani takeover in fact, but the
> Imperium is HUGE and it would take centuries for the effects to spread
> and rebound.  Even the conquest of the 1st Imperium could be blamed on
> sweeping economic destabilization brought on when the inflexible
> Vilani ran into the Solomani.

Remenber that a floated doller is based on perceptions, not facts and not 
figures. Someone percieves that a currency is changing value, he acts on 
it, making a change in its value. How can you do this when even in Year 
0, there is up to a six month timelag on communications? The perception 
one would get about a value for a currency is based on assumptions, 
guesses and infomations that _must_ be obsolete even when it was sent via 
the x-boat system.


> 
> Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
> the Imperium could be put together and endure very long.  Travel and
> communication times are just too long.  It would have to *very* loose,
> more Commonwealth (if not Common Market) than Empire.  I'd say a few
> sectors would be about the largest *maintainable* size, maybe a couple
> of months to travel from an edge to the center.
> 
> How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g>

IMHO, the Imperium is based on three empires, two of which are fictional. 
1) the Roman Empire, was established in a blaze of glory, then took 1000 
years to completely collapse. They too had communication problems (which 
they solved by roads), and they too had a currency based on the gold 
standard (which was easier then, as mercantile science was just passing 
the barter stage).

2) Asimov's Impirium. The Trantor Empire was barely touched on by Asimov 
himself, using its rise and collapse as a plot device to tell his story. 

3) Niven & Pournelle First and Second Imperium. Again only a plot device 
(we do see more on its creation with Pournelle and Sterlings "Prince of 
Sparta series" 

Since a lot of inspiration for Cleon's Imperium was fictional, 
the game designers could put together any explanation on how the empire 
worked. Because they would only be concerned with telling a story. 


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 02:51:04 -0600
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs, Comin' Up Hot!

On 07/10/96 at 04:53 PM,  Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> said:

>In New South Wales, we call them Battered Savs, and they are quite 
>popular at the Royal Easter Show (Thay also can be called Dagwoods)
 
Isn't that interesting!  Over here in the USA, a Dagwood is a
extraordinarily thick sandwich...so thick you can't get a bite of the
whole thing at once.  It's named after a comic strip character,
Dagwood Bumstead.

...and I have *no* idea how I'm going to get this back on the subject
of Traveller! <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 02:46:37 -0600
Subject: RE: The Iridium Standard

On 07/10/96 at 12:28 AM,  That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu> said:

>: Second, the Imperium is modeled (it seems to me) on mercantile
>empires : rather than capitalism. 

>I'm not sure if either model is very accurate.  I think the best way
>to think of the Imperium is at a trade union (similar to the EU/EC). 

(I mentioned in my original post that's the only way I could see it
*really* working. <g>)

>It's many smaller economies that are treated as one big on when
>dealing with other large economies.

That's just it, there really *aren't* other large economies that the
Imperium trades with.  Before it tore itself apart it was the 500
pound gorilla in this end of the galaxy.

>The reason for this is also quite simple.  You start withn 11 worlds
>and then work your way up to 11,000.  That's a lot of iridium that
>you'll have to find.  8)

Isn't rarity one of the requisites for currency? <g>

>: Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
>: the Imperium could be put together and endure very long. 

>Yeah, but then it wouldn't be such a fun game if we didn't suspend
>our disbelief just a little.

I've always had more fun when I divide an area up into smaller
governing groups, and let them compete.  This doesn't necessarily mean
military competition, economic competition is just as good..gamewise.

>: How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g>

>But don't forget that if I accelerate my 1Cr chip at near
>relativistic speeds, I can probably take out the Regina Stock Market. 
>8)

Yeah, but only if you're 1Cr chip is Virus controlled and is in a 'BB'
missile! ;->  Man, I'm tired of rocks, and bugs, and BBs!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:47:54 +0200
Subject: Corn Dogs!

     Thank you all for the culinary information.  I guess this shows that 
     what you assume is common knowledge, often isn't to someone from 
     another country (and explains why Letterman presenting the Oscars was 
     incredibly tedious for a lot of us - "Why are all the people in the 
     theatre laughing?  Was that a joke?  What's a corn dog?").
     
     OK, random thoughts about Traveller:
     
     Human to Vargr outside fast food stall: "No it doesn't *really* 
     contain any dog; or vargr.  Yes I know what he called it.  Put those 
     teeth away.  Down boy!  Siiiit!"
     
     Cheers,
     Liam

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 03:05:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

Thus spake Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>:

> gsw@aloft.att.com wrote:
> 
> > You gave an excellent summary of why Virus can succeed. One more
> > important thing to remember is that it was a *plot device* used
> > to precipitate the sudden fall of an empire (admittedly already
> > on the brink of utter catastrophe anyway), so perhaps could be
> > allowed a bit of leeway. (ducks for cover...)
> 
> Whifff...  Bang!  Crash!!

Just so long as you qualify your comments as being supported, or just off 
the top of your head.  Actually, I see that gsw (who?) did just that.
  
> > The only problem I detect with Virus is that there are allegedly
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^
> > rules for its infecting *any* system it encounters (disclaimer: I
> > don't own TNE). Certainly there would be *some* systems that are
> > impervious to Virus. For instance, my home thermostat contains an
> > embedded controller, but there is no way to reprogram it. You may
> > be able to *physically* alter it, but that is a different issue.

There's the BIG word, here...  (not you, Derek, the OTHER guy...)
 
[stuff about the viability of a simple programmable thermostat as a Virus 
host snipped]
 
> "I'll show those human's it's hot out so I'll turn on the airconditioning 
> and make it really uncomfortable in here."

Sounds like something I saw in a Dilbert comic.  Remember Phil, the 
Prince of Insufficient Light?

"...just for that, I'm raising the thermostat by five degrees for five 
minutes!"

"Oh, horrors!"
  
[stuff about 'trusted' (isolated) systems, saboteurs' (and Virus) 
ingenuity, and the coercibility of fleshy technicians snipped]
  
> > However, I still believe that ships implementing proper security
> > precautions should be safe from virus attacks (other than those
> > involving meson guns :-). For example, pirate ships should all
> > be virus-free :-).
 
[Derek counters that this statement might have been correct if anyone had 
known what 'proper security precautions' were when Virus was first released]
 
> The problem that the Third Imperium had was it trusted it's computer's to 
> be there for them, and one day they weren't and everything just fell 
> appart.

It didn't help that just about every system was wired into computers 
somehow (just look at the massive computer integration that was built 
into pre-Collapse starships), and almost everything was built according 
to widely-disseminated design standards (the Imperial Data Package) which 
were also built into the Virus program.  According to "Survival Margin", 
the first-generation Virus basically had the blueprints on everything 
from mechanical pencils to jump drive relay governors.  Of course, I 
don't even want to BEGIN to theorize about what the hell a Virus-infected 
system could do with a mechanical pencil...

> Quickly ducking behind a desk hoping for the best after theorizing his 
> brains out.

"Theorizing your brains out?"  Interesting image...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 03:27:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fighters and Missiles

Thus spake "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>:

[snip]

> Thanks for the info on your designs.  Please send me what you have on the
> HEPlaR missiles.  I still have a problem with the cost of the electronics
> for even a relatively useful fighter.  I would like for them to be cheap
> and deadly, but to put in any electronics at all costs LOTS of MCr.  Also
> folding arrays are not supposed to be used when maneuvering, and a fighter
> would be maneuvering all of the time if it wanted to live.

There doesn't seem to be any injunction in the Brilliant Lances rules for 
maneuvering with your passive array extended, but I could have missed 
it.  I definitely wouldn't allow a ship to enter any sort of atmosphere 
with the array extended, though.
 
[David postulates the "Sleeping Torpedo Bomber" approach to fighter 
operations]
 
> BTW: this makes a fighter a "Ship of the Line Killer", so defending
> against them becomes more important.

I haven't done too many finished fighter designs, but the one's I've put 
a little bit of work on had room for plenty of missiles.  My idea of a 
heavy fighter would have a good electronics package (which does tend to 
drive the price up), one high-output, high ROF laser, and an internal 
rotary missile launcher (kinda like in B-1 and B-2 bombers).  The key to 
effective fighter ops would be getting close enough (probably while the 
enemy's capital ships are being distracted by your own cruisers and 
battleships) to launch a whole slough of missiles and get the hell out as 
you're guiding them to their targets, while not giving the enemy a lot of 
time to defend against the incoming warheads (or evade them).  Even with 
the good old High Guard rules, building massive carriers (like the ones 
presented in the Fighting Ships supplement) didn't seem like such a keen 
proposition given the low survivability of fighters in the face of other 
capital ships, especially when some of them could pull just as many G's 
as a fighter could.

Unless fighters can get close enough to capital ships using their smaller 
sensor cross-section (being smaller and, therefore, harder to spot) to 
where their weapon systems and maneuverability make up for the fact that 
they're within the killing range of a larger and slower target, there's 
no point to having them.  Sure, you could use standoff weapons that don't 
require the fighters to get close but then, considering how much they 
cost, why have them?

In order to make fighters worthwhile in the Traveller universe, you need 
to find a niche for them in the space combat spectrum of operations where 
they are actually a better alternative to larger, more heavily armed ships.
 
> Also what I was thinking was to mount a smaller main laser that has a
> higher ROF, but is designed to take on smaller ships, and vehicles.  It
> might take multiple strafing runs to really hurt that Far Trader, but then
> again from a corsair standpoint that may be just the ticket.

But, then again, so would a more heavily armed trader, in order to make 
the piracy operation worthwhile.  Of course, that's a whole other can of 
worms that I'd rather not open right now.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #230
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